It was a very sweet week. All difficult moments were for passing reasons, soon forgotten.
C. Scott Morse is an American animator, filmmaker, and comic book artist/writer.
Robert Louis Balfour Stevenson (13 November 1850 – 3 December 1894) was a Scottish novelist, poet, essayist, and travel writer. His most famous works are Treasure Island, Kidnapped, Jekyll and Hyde, and A Child’s Garden of Verses.
Sorry, old fellow, but anyone who believes we are entering a “post appearances matter” culture needs oxygen. Quite the opposite is happening, in fact, and rapidly.
I disagree with that as a blanket statement, but I’m fine with needing oxygen. 🙂
I have to agree with War Pig, I’m afraid. Whilst *some* people (read: sensible people) agree that it is truly the personality and/or actions of a person that matter… until the media at large change, we will never be “post appearances matter”. And there will always be trolls and idiots…
Celebrity photos are air-brushed to get rid of “unflattering” things, like pores (PORES, for Pete’s sake!?), a waist is trimmed, a jawline is slimmed. The flip side is if the subject is not paying for the news, or the story is a negative one: “Cheryl on night out; what a mess!”, and running the most unflattering picture they can find to make them look worse.
Then there are “plus-size” models, who are actually size 8 or 10–which is bloody tiny–therefore making women think that, because they are bigger than the plus-size models, they are even more extra fat than they feel they are…
Yeah, sorry Chris, but our society is fubar’d in respect of how we view someone’s appearance. I don’t see it changing, no matter how many programs/films/shows say that someone’s appearance is secondary to their personality. Body shaming sells papers/generates clicks…
Chris Baldwin was a spry young lad in the ’90s. You’ll never believe what he looks like today! [clickbait]
I am annoyed with the replies here. Can I say that? The first saying “Christopher, you’re wrong, and if you think you’re right, you’re crazy” without any defense of position, and the second simply explaining why I’m wrong.
If the point of debate (in life, not in negotiations) is to be right, then when do you actually learn anything? Have you considered the approach of something like: “from what I’ve seen in the media (stating your basis) appearance is as important as ever (what you feel you’ve observed as an equivalent to my statement), am I missing something (asking me for more information)?
Come on. You’ve both read enough of my comics to know maybe I might have SOME basis for my thought rattling up in my head.
Anyhow, I’m not going to be snooty and not reply. My statement is a very simple one. That for these screenwriters are grappling with the ideal that we’re moving towards a post “appearances matter” culture. First off, it’s an ideal, so it doesn’t have to be true to anyone but them. And second of all, have either of you seen both movies recently and can actually debate this?
Secondly: in more liberal areas of the United States (and in news I read of places abroad), I feel I’ve observed a trend (since the 90s when I first moved to one) towards more acceptance/protection/accessibility to people’s appearance regarding: race, gender, shifting gender norms, disabilities, weight, etc. I feel I’ve also observed that Disney has tried really hard towards this goal. Especially in the little I’ve seen in their television programs, of a pretty dang diverse cast in many ways (not that I don’t have a list of quibbles for them).
I think when sales are involved (ads, much of hollywood, etc) that companies still find (or feel) that thin and white (and often male) still sell better, and so I agree, that has changed much slower, and often not at all, and my point was much about that. But for debate sake: i feel even that HAS changed. People who are overweight are now television and movie stars. Adverts will now sometimes show interracial couples. Sometimes you even see people in wheelchairs who are not simply put their for the pity draw.
You’re right, Chris. I’m sorry if my comment came across as ‘I’m right, you’re wrong’.
I do preface my comment that most sensible people believe that beauty is only skin deep, but I do feel that the media perpetuates a continual image that ‘pretty people are better’.
I agree that films are making some steps in the right direction, and diversity is less of a ‘shock’. Like you say, disabilities and interracial couples in adverts are more of a thing because that’s not such a shocking thing anymore (not that it ever should have been). People are more open to those sorts of things these days. I think it’s mainly the marketing and news media that are the main culprits and that is something that will never change, not fully. Again, in my opinion.
Also with the overweight actors being in more films, I feel that there is a tendency (not always, but often enough for it to be notable) for them to play the slapstick comic relief, cos hey, fat man fall down never gets old, right?
I admit that I haven’t seen the new B&tB film, but have seen the original many times, and yes, some of those old cartoons are awful (insofar as race, sex, gender, and equality is concerned…) Sign of the times they were made in, I guess.
I don’t really like arguing, which is probably why my debate skill and etiquette is lacking ???? I’m generally a passive guy. I didn’t want to leave this with you thinking I’m just blanket dismissing your thoughts on the subject however. I respect your opinion but feel that more should be done and we are still a long way off. And there will always be meat head macho men that get their kicks from putting ‘imperfect’ people down.
My apologies if I caused offence.
Hey David, sorry to get my hackles up. Mostly it was from the previous comment. Apologies if I was offensive in response.
And I loathe arguing too. Ha! And I agree, so much is still awful, and so much more is left to be done. But it makes me hopeful that things seem to be still (sluggishly) moving in a positive direction. And discouraged, that as you pointed out, news and marketing are being dragged tooth and nail.
Sorry again. I should not comment before coffee. 🙂
One can agree or disagree, this isn’t exactly a right or wrong here. In some areas yes there are those who want to wipe away those who look at covers only to decide about people. Which is a good thing. However it is far from over. Since it statistics show that you appearance and how you deal with people work more in your favor over how well you do your job or your skills and intelligence. I put it to just being a human thing. If you can’t communicate well and make contacts you have a much harder time. I know it happens to me. I have a problem with communication. Not in the usual way. It is the micro expressions and my demeanor that aren’t quite right. it is almost subliminal that for a large percentage of people will find themselves unnerved by me. The emotional brain is just that much faster than the thinking brain. Even bullies shy away from people with that kind of a problem. Schizotyple Personality Disorder.
I have found that very few can get passed it.
Maybe one day we will be rid of it if it is possible with the limitations of human beings and our own evolution toward that in the first place will be hard.
In a way, things seem to be going both ways. There is more emphasis on (celebrities especially) appearing perfect, and also more acceptance of those who are very much less than perfect in appearance – people who used to be more or less hidden away, like people with disabilities. We do now have a lot more data on how appearance still does have an impact on how you make out in the world (tall people tend to get paid more, fat people get promoted less, etc.) – which I am hoping will add to generally increasing equal treatment. Haven’t watched either version of B&tB, but I applaud any effort to move away from “pretty is all that matters” mindsets.
Also, yay for getting grants!
@ mouse
I second the observation that there are strong trends going both ways. This is happening on a number of social issues and will create tensions and contradictions that we are going to have to resolve in some way. Interesting times?
This would also explain why people even here can arrive at opposite strongly held beliefs based on personal experience. I must say I’m in awe of how quickly this could be articulated and resolved with civility, on the internet of all places 😉
In particular, I agree that one can go off normative frame nowadays and that this is a big deal. I think it started a little earlier, Bill Gates famously wore sneakers, and Steve Jobs jeans. Gasp. To be sure, both Bill and Steve walked around as if they’d owned the place – and dressing like they did only reinforced the impression that they not only fitted right in (naturally) but were right at the edge.
So, today the top players certainly can be female, of color, openly gay, etc. (admittedly not too many of them actually are). As Christopher quite rightly points out, there is now room for three overweight female movie stars (probably two of whom are actually about average weight compared to members of their audience).
Must we dwell on the 100 or so other female stars and starlets with hourglass figures hardened in full-time workouts, polished off with surgical, cosmetic, and digital post-processing tools? Of whom only 10 will even have any movie career past the camera age of 30 (which they now can delay by a decade or more)? Let us note that the people involved (fitness coaches, cosmetic and digital artists, scriptwriters, directors, producers…) are now much more aware (“woke”) and actually feel a little bad about their day jobs continuing to push the boundaries of the female form (and increasingly the male form) into Jessica Rabbit land. (At least such women may now play the lead and blow things up in a minority of flicks).
It may be that one cannot tell anymore by looks that Christopher (or Cedra) aren’t some influential CEOs or law firm partners. While this is really cool, I’m pretty sure one can after a 5 second conversation – or simply by googling their names and getting to this website.
(I’m quite serious, they might not care whether you wear a tie or not, but if the first hits on google are, say, about some political controversy – rather than an extensive linked-in page cultivated over years – good luck with finding a job flipping burgers).
I guess my point is that while there has been progress and is still a lot of work to be done to address outward appearances, we also really need to get to work on those much more subtle ways of social acceptance and mobility. However much we may reduce outward prejudice about social indicators of a person’s value and what caste they belong to, at some point we might have to also address that we’re constantly made to evaluate people. Also that we’re living under a caste system, even increasingly so.
Oh dear, was this cynicism mixed with political analysis? Clearly a person with such an attitude just wouldn’t do at polite dinner parties, even if they made an effort to dress up 😉
@NightGaunt49: Oh, hell yeah. I had 2 paralytic strokes at age 18 months, and grew up a monster. My face is crooked — it has actually frightened children, and while at 68 it’s no big deal any more, when I was 10 it was, um, difficult. And still, there are people who never see past that first emotional reaction to get a glimpse of who I actually am. And what’s REALLY weird is that I catch myself doing the same thing! It’s a very complex situation, and I’m all in favor of even tiny steps being made to change it. Seeing people who aren’t all young, white, thin and beautiful in the media is a good thing; may it continue.